TX-NR709 Picture Mode gray scale question...

On avsforum - NR709 Owner's Thread it has been discovered by others that while viewing a gray scale test pattern certain Onkyo picture modes show up brown instead of gray.

I just verified this also. With Spears & Munsil BluRay test disc Menu > setup & evaluation > contrast on the screen the Onkyo NR709 Menu 4-5 - Picture Mode: Direct, Cinema and Custom give you gray scale. Game and Through give you a "brown scale".

Is this intended or is there a bug somewhere?

Hi BH82930,
Could you possibly send us a picture so we can better understand what you are talking about? Thank you.

Photos of issue sent via email.

Thanks.

Just got your email and forwarding it now to an associate in Product Support, thank you for your patience.

I have replicated this on my receiver too. Its quite disturbing. Why hasn't Onkyo responded on this?????

Hi kentuk1163,

Can you please email us the pictures so that we may compare them with the previous customers’ pictures? Thank you. You may send these to onkyoadmin@us.onkyo.com

I'm not sure taking a photo of the screen will really solve much. However, if you save a test pattern and display it on a monitor through the receiver, you will definitely see what we are talking about. I am e-mailing a test pattern to you.

The "Game" and "Through" modes do not display the gray scales correct - AT ALL.

Yep, not even close. The 709's video processor turns grays to brown on any setting other than Direct or Custom. It's been tested on multiple units and is an obvious and gross defect. It's really a wonder that this issue got past Onkyo, Marvell and THX.

Hi forum users,

Are you all using the "Spears & Munsil BluRay test disc"? This is needed so we can have our engineers look at it. Thank you.

OnkyoUSA wrote:Hi forum users,

Are you all using the "Spears & Munsil BluRay test disc"? This is needed so we can have our engineers look at it. Thank you.

Yes, but it can easily be seen on any grayscale pattern. I have seen it personally on two different receivers, both with Spears & Munsil BD and Digital Video Essentials (DVE) DVD. Go to the grayscale pattern, and switch between all of the modes, and you will see the color of gray that is close to black, turn to a dark ugly brown, that looks just like the Cleveland Browns' home jerseys................. Obviously, the grayscale should only be different shades of gray from white to black.


edit: It should also be noted that I use HDMI exclusively, and from what I've read, the other users also were connected via HDMI.

Hi Forum users,

I'm curious to know if any of you have tried this with other calibration disks and have experienced the same thing as others in this forum. As of now there are only two mentioned, the spears and munsil and the digital video essentials. Also has anyone contacted our product support on this as we have no information on this logged in our systems? It would also be helpful if any of you provide makes and model numbers of the TV's and blue Ray players as on the Spears and Munsil website in the manual it states "not all displays" will work.
The pictures that have been sent all seem to point to the Pluge high and not the gray scale on the spears & Munsil disk?

Hi. I'm currently considering buying an Onkyo TX-NR709. However they keep mentioning this problem on AVS forum, so I assume no fix has been released.
I know this model is going to be replaced soon, so does that mean you won't be releasing any more firmwares for it?

I would be using Game mode myself all the time, so if this problem can't be solved then I'll look elsewere.

Thanks.

Hi konsolkongen,

We've had no problems with grey scale on this unit and it is always a possibility that a firmware will be out though not guaranteed. The newer model of 709 the 717 has a lot of features that will be enjoyed.

Okay. I trust that if I buy the 709 and also report the same problem it will be taken seriously? In my case I would test with the Grayscale pattern on the DVDO Edge by running it through the reciever in Game Mode.

Btw, I haven't been able to find a clear answer to this. How much delay (in ms) does the receiver minimally add when running video through HDMI?

Thanks

OnkyoUSA wrote:Hi konsolkongen,

We've had no problems with grey scale on this unit and it is always a possibility that a firmware will be out though not guaranteed. The newer model of 709 the 717 has a lot of features that will be enjoyed.

With all due respect, then you guys have the only 709 on the planet that doesn't have the problem, and further more, how in the world did THX certify the 709 with such an enormous flaw? I used to be impressed by the THX logo, but after this grayscale issue that has been reported by many users, I now understand it's just more of a marketing/sales gimmick.

konsolkongen wrote:Okay. I trust that if I buy the 709 and also report the same problem it will be taken seriously? In my case I would test with the Grayscale pattern on the DVDO Edge by running it through the reciever in Game Mode.

Btw, I haven't been able to find a clear answer to this. How much delay (in ms) does the receiver minimally add when running video through HDMI?

Thanks

The receiver will add no delays to the audio. If you have a sync problem, it is always caused by the HD TV processing the video. It takes just a fraction of a second to scale and deinterlace the video signal, while the audio passes through and is decoded with no delay. I have a Samsung 60"D6420 LED display, and I have to run a 100ms delay in the 709 to sync the audio. Disney's WOW (World of Wonder) BD calibration disc has the best sync tool that I have ever used, and I've used a lot of them! It's worth the 25 bones on Amazon.

D Bone wrote:
The receiver will add no delays to the audio. If you have a sync problem, it is always caused by the HD TV processing the video. It takes just a fraction of a second to scale and deinterlace the video signal, while the audio passes through and is decoded with no delay...

I am aware that the reciver will not delay the audio, I meant the video. I should have been more specific

Good deinterlacing usually takes at least two frames of delay. Let's use the DVDO Edge as an example, it is just a standalone scaler/deinterlacer. In normal mode (with full picture adjustments and very good deinterlacing) it adds 56ms og delay. In Game mode (heavily reduced picture adjustment options and quite poor deinterlacing) it adds 6-8ms delay.

I mostly use my TV/sound setup for video games, both old and retro, and if the chain of scalers, recievers and TV adds too much delay things quickly becomes unplayable

Got it, you're a gamer! If I were you, I would use Direct mode, both to limit any video delay, as well as prevent the greyscale issue that all other video modes (except for Custom) will introduce. I haven't seen any measurements on the 709 regarding video lag, so I can't help with that.

As far as I can understand from the instruction manual, Game mode is faster than Direct.
?

Hi konsolkongen,

Have you tried to skip the video processor? Keep in mind that you can not do this with all of our units and that you will not be using the receivers’ video processor. To do this on this receiver:

On the front of the unit press and hold the VCR/DVR button down and while holding this button down press the return button twice it will say use/skip. This is also the way to toggle between use/skip for when you want to use it again.

No, I'm still thinking about wether or not I should buy the 709 receiver. I haven't owned an Onkyo product before.

I wasn't aware that the video processor could be disabled completely. I have read most of the manual and I must have missed that part. That's very reassurring for gaming

Hi konsolkongen,

It is not something generally known so it would not be in the manual hence the reason for the disclaimer in the beginning.

Sorry, but I think it's stupid to keep such features in the secret. For gamers this will really come in handy

I have a friend who is considering the ONKYO HT-S9405THX receiver + speaker package. Can you confirm that it's possible to disable video processing on that one as well?

Does your tv have more than 1 HDMI input? If so, what about bypassing the 709 altogether and going straight to the tv?

It does. But then you will miss out on DTS HD Master Audio, Dolby True HD and 7.1 sound in general from the PS3